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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2016 21:16:38 GMT
@gibby, geriatrix, oh well. Heretix Forums was here before they became members and hopefully we'll grow and be better in the near future. With or without them. Does anyone else care enough about this thread to take up the baton?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 1:32:12 GMT
finally with the advent of camera phones are recording the atrocities thay have been committing for years that people complained about that no one would listen to because the police .would lie about things and there was no proof showing different and people always believed the word of the police.
When law enforcement are criminals, then what protection do we have from crime? anyone who was around or influenced by the hippie era knows what you are saying is true. Maybe I'm showing my age
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geriatrix
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Space is a vast place...
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Post by geriatrix on Dec 24, 2016 11:24:24 GMT
influenced by the hippie era I was born 20 years too late to experience it first hand and I wish I had been around the San Francisco Bay during the late 1960s! But I still embrace many of the hippie values, like the music, looks and friendliness.
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Joey
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Post by Joey on Dec 25, 2016 7:41:18 GMT
I just never grew up.
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Joey
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Post by Joey on Dec 25, 2016 7:49:03 GMT
Peace and Merry Christmas!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2016 8:21:39 GMT
web.stanford.edu/class/e297c/poverty_prejudice/paradox/htele.htmlThe war on drugs has failed. By making drugs illegal, this country has: 1) Put half a million people in prison : $10 Billion a year 2) Spent billions annually for expanded law enforcement 3) Fomented violence and death (in gang turf wars, overdoses from uncontrolled drug potency & shared needles/AIDS) 4) Eroded civil rights (property can be confiscated from you BEFORE you are found guilty; search and wiretap authority has expanded.) 5) Enriched criminal organizations. The street price of a single ounce of pure cocaine is several thousands of dollars, yet the cost to produce the drug is less than $20. The difference is the amount we are willing to pay to criminals for the privilege of keeping the drug illegal. Not only that, but such a high markup is strong incentive for people to enter into the sales and trafficking of these drugs. The stiff penalties we assess against drug dealers only makes the price higher and the criminals more desperate to escape capture, more determined to protect their market from encroachment. If drugs were legalized, the price would drop by to a tiny fraction of their current street values and the incentive to push drugs would vanish. Recall that during prohibition, bootleggers and police used to shoot it out over black market 'shine. Illegal speakeasies did a booming trade, the profits of which went to organized crime. With the end of prohibition, alcohol has been taxed and provides a revenue stream to the State. Would drug use go up? Maybe. But it might well go down, since there would be no profit in getting new users to try drugs. Protecting drug users against themselves costs the rest of us too much: in dollars, in safety and in freedom. The Final thought is simply this: The drug war is not working, and if alternatives are not considered now, a solution may never be possible.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2016 8:55:20 GMT
So allow me to provide a couple of examples of how one sided people want to make this argument in order to defend police. Now we had a story posted about money raised for the families of slain Dallas police officers. Now I feel for those families and no one should have to die like they did, but the Dallas PD and the officers therein were not just innocent men who got slain by a nutcase. They have a long history of brutality and even killing unarmed citizens.
Dallas Police Brutality
Dallas Police Are Caught On Tape Killing A Man
It has been written that if you live by the sword that is how you will die. We need to stop letting police play victim.
While I know there is police brutality I don't believe there is any evidence to show that ALL police officers are the same, thinking that is very dangerous and makes you bias , those police officers who were killed were just as much victims as the unarmed people who were killed by police officers who didnt have a justifiable reason to do so, no one has a justifiable reason to murder a cop which is what you are intimating with this post.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2016 9:02:03 GMT
Stanford mentioned that the medical model of addiction is problematic as well in their discussion. To the gang, mob or pusher, drugs and their sales are a way of making money. It's true some are also needing the drugs to be available for their use and the money pays for that, but not all are. To the user, not all are addicts. Some are recreational users. Yes they actually do exist. By clumping all these people into one model, you serve no one. If we penalize people who need treatment, then we don't solve the problem either. Because even with proper treatment, drug abusers/addicts have a high recidivism rate. And sending them to jail or prison for possessing drugs, or selling drugs/petty crimes to obtain drugs (gang affiliation, theft. prostitution, pushing drugs) doesn't cut off their access to drugs. in fact it practically assures it. You can find drugs even inside a prison cell. With far less effort in a lot of places. So how do you expect them to quit? Then there is the social aspect of drugs/ selling or using. You form relationships with the people you buy and/or sell from. And no matter how much you may wish to stop using, these relationships make it harder to stay clean. And the final aspect is that there is a familial element as well. They may have family members who use alcohol and/or drugs and have probably grown up with the model that drugs and/or alcohol are acceptable. So the first thing you have to do is change that, before treatment is even a viable option. Bottomline, it's a tiered problem and looking at a specific section of it solves nothing about the larger issue. And in solving nothing, it costs lives and enormous amounts of money. The police and the gangs have a symbiotic relationship as well. In order for either to survive, the other has to exist. As for police's treatment of the people involved, they obviously need better training. Same as they do with all other mental health situations and people. They see volatility and see it as a threat to them. Rather than a medical crisis. Which can and often does cause lethal consequences.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2016 10:37:05 GMT
im2, But what you are discussing are the incidents of crime. That's a catch up mentality that doesn't teach you anything IMO It may work better to look at why crime occurs, and who participates and benefits from it continuing. Otherwise it will continue and the discussion goes nowhere.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2016 11:13:41 GMT
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Joey
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Post by Joey on Jan 2, 2017 3:12:52 GMT
So you are saying don't cooperate with the police. That isn't the advice I would give anyone.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2017 7:32:25 GMT
So you are saying don't cooperate with the police. That isn't the advice I would give anyone. No that's not the solution either. The answer is to change the police as a group for the better. Make them more diversity aware and sensitive. So they CAN do their job and we CAN rely on them. But, how do POC, immigrants and ppl with mental health issues rely on, trust and cooperate with police who have a history of harming ppl just like them?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2017 9:19:07 GMT
The police do not get to walk up to your car demanding that you roll down your windows nor do they have the right to ask you for your IDS if you are not breaking any laws. They do for announced R I D E programs here in Canada. And also if they have "probable cause" ie traffic safety, your vehicle is unstable/unfit to drive/ not meeting traffic code or if they suspect you of criminal activity. If they DO, you should ask if your cooperation is mandatory or voluntary. If you face arrest if you don't and under what grounds. if they suspect you of criminal activity, it has to be something that is in "plain sight". Or let's say plain senses. After all, they aren't psychic. So if you roll down your window and they smell alcohol or drugs, they can and should ask you for a field sobriety test. You can refuse in theory, but if you do they'll arrest you and do it "in custody" so really what's the point? Except the tests are more accurate at the station than in field. It actually does serve you to refuse. Except you have a displeased officer now.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2017 10:27:46 GMT
im2, this statement made me laugh 'Police officers are like vampires, they need your permission to come into your home." So true! But funny
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2017 10:57:19 GMT
im2, You really do have to weigh carefully your rights/wanting to have them upheld and how upset the officer is going to get with you/what they will do with that emotion. Bottom line is they have the gun. So always appear to cooperate, but don't actually give ground. For eg, in the case of field sobriety, offer to go to the station and do it there. Park and lock the car. and be detained for the ride. But you have better accuracy of results.
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